N.J. Republican candidates for governor clash in explosive, chaotic first debate

Four Republicans vying to be the next governor of New Jersey faced off in their first debate Tuesday night, sparring over their track records and making digs at each other for almost two hours.

The attacks and name-calling frustrated many attendees who wanted the candidates to focus on the issues. The debate’s tone contrasted sharply with the subdued forum for Democratic candidates two nights earlier.

“We’re not getting the kumbaya night tonight that we did on Sunday,” panelist David Wildstein quipped.

Both debates were sponsored by the Rebovich Institute for New Jersey Politics at Rider University, On New Jersey, and the New Jersey Globe. On New Jersey’s Laura Jones moderated the debate and worked to rein in candidates, frequently telling them their time was up and threatening to cut off their microphones if they continued talking over one another. More than once, Jones had to tell candidates to move on, saying, “This is no longer productive.”

Two of the four candidates—radio personality Bill Spadea and former Assemblyman Jack Ciattarelli—argued back and forth about who was more loyal to Donald Trump and dredged up old comments to discredit each other. Trucker Ed Durr said he was the only anti-establishment candidate, while Sen. John Bramnick, a lawyer and former Assembly minority leader, said he was the only GOP candidate who could win the general election in the Democrat-dominated state.

Spadea said the talking over one another reminded him of an old Italian dinner. “Unfortunately, in a debate as to who is going to be the best next governor, the loudest, most disruptive, annoying person does not win,” Spadea said.

Spadea and Ciattarelli both went on later in the debate to call each other liars. Ciattarelli also called Spadea a grifter, noting he paid himself $65,000 from his nonprofit Elect Common Sense.

Ciattarelli said it was a compliment that the other candidates were attacking him because it confirms he is the frontrunner. He repeatedly told debate viewers to go to a website called PhonyBill.com to review Spadea’s past comments, but Spadea flipped the script and repeatedly asked why Ciattarelli didn’t cite the website again whenever Ciattarelli responded to questions.

Spadea said he is committed to implementing the “America First” agenda on day one in office. “I have been an ardent, strong and effective supporter of President Donald Trump since he came on the escalator in 2015,” he said. “We have two problems in New Jersey—woke Democrats who wrecked this state and weak Republicans who let it happen.”

Spadea vowed to serve only one term if elected governor so he can make “a lot of unpopular decisions.”

Ciattarelli, the only candidate to say he would live in Drumthwacket, the governor’s mansion in Princeton, said Republicans need to unite to win. He then went on to bash Bramnick for being friendly with Gov. Phil Murphy and criticizing Trump supporters. Ciattarelli criticized Spadea for allegedly lying about him, trashing Trump in the past, and referring to moderate Republicans as Republicans in name only (RINOs).

“We need a serious candidate, one who can unite our party, one who brings a very positive energy to the campaign, one who can raise the necessary money, unlike my opponents, and one who’s going to benefit all candidates down ballot,” Ciattarelli said.

Durr said the only way to fix New Jersey is to shake things up. He said all the other candidates are connected to the political establishment.

“You’re going to hear a couple of guys argue over who’s more Trump-like. I’m going to ask you to block that out because it’s just noise,” Durr said. “My campaign has no connection to the political establishment. Why? Because they don’t like me.”

Durr said his campaign is going to be about affordability, adding that Bramnick and Ciattarelli have failed to make the state affordable. Referring to Ocean County GOP Chair George Gilmore, Durr said Spadea is backed by the political power broker and therefore will be “just the other side of the same coin.”

Bramnick said the state has had one-party rule without balance for too long, resulting in overdevelopment and increases in crime and taxes.

“In order to change that, we have to win. What that means is you need Republican votes, Democratic votes, the moderate Democrats, and you also need independents. I have proven over the years that I can win as a Republican,” Bramnick said, noting that he won in a district Kamala Harris won by 12 points.

“Do you think the people of New Jersey want the debate to be about who loves Donald Trump the most, or who loves New Jersey the most?” Bramnick said. “You are not going to win this state unless we get to the issues that cause our problems.”

Immigrants

Asked what the new governor needs to do on day one in office, Bramnick said sanctuary cities need to be banned and law enforcement should be able to assist ICE.

“If we’re a law-and-order state, we have to follow law and order, and the federal law is that you have to cooperate with the federal government,” Bramnick said. “I feel very badly about certain people who have been here for 30 years, but we have to follow the law.”

Durr said he found Bramnick’s position as a “law-and-order” candidate amusing, claiming his vote for N.J. Attorney General Matt Platkin should disqualify him from running for governor.

Bramnick retorted that Durr doesn’t understand how government works and that’s why voters didn’t reelect him after two years.

“Your judgment was bad,” Bramnick said. “I won over and over again because I’ve got good judgment. Now, if you had won the election, you’d be in a position to lecture other people. The voters told you to take a hike.”

Spadea vowed he would rescind a 2018 executive order that prohibited state resources from being used to separate the families of immigrants, as well as the Immigrant Trust Directive, which ensures that victims and witnesses feel safe reporting crimes to local police without fear of deportation.

Ciattarelli chided Spadea, saying he previously voiced support for giving amnesty to people in the U.S. illegally. Spadea noted that Ciattarelli voted in the Assembly for driver’s licenses for undocumented people and for subsidizing their college tuition.

Durr focused on Gov. Phil Murphy’s comments a few days ago about an immigrant living over his garage. He said a sheriff should go to Murphy’s house to investigate the matter. After the debate, Ciattarelli told reporters the Legislature should impeach Murphy for harboring someone who doesn’t have U.S. citizenship.

All of the candidates said they would repeal the law that gives undocumented immigrants driver’s licenses.

Abortion

Asked whether the candidates would support a constitutional amendment protecting abortion rights, Bramnick said he is pro-choice but has strong feelings about late-term abortions.

Durr said he is proud to be pro-life and said a woman can get an abortion in New Jersey “up to birth.”

“I do not agree with abortion being used as a form of birth control when we have so many options available for birth control. I think there are exceptions, and I think that is between the woman, her doctor, and her God,” Durr said. “As far as putting it on a constitutional amendment, I don’t think that’s needed. We already have the most extreme abortion laws in the country.”

Spadea is the only candidate endorsed by New Jersey Right to Life and the National Right to Life. He touted pregnancy resource centers where women from broken families can go to be supported and give birth.

“We are the highest abortion state per capita around the country,” Spadea said. “I think it is time to address the choice of bringing a baby into the world and getting those resources behind these pregnancy resource centers so we can help these young women.”

Ciattarelli said he has always supported a woman’s right to choose.

“What I also support is a bill introduced by two of our most conservative state senators called the pain threshold bill that says no abortions after five months of pregnancy, with reasonable exceptions,” Ciattarelli said. “I also support, as governor, appointing conservative judges who will support parental notification. A female in this state can’t get her ears pierced without the permission of parents, and yet parents are not going to be notified when a 16- or 17-year-old female goes to get an abortion.”

Housing and development

Panelist Micah Rasmussen asked the candidates what the next governor must do to ensure New Jersey strikes the right balance between affordable homes for families, intensive warehouse complexes, farmland, and open space.

Durr said the Mount Laurel decision is wrong and that communities should make their own decisions about affordable housing.

Ciattarelli said the next governor will get to appoint the next New Jersey Supreme Court chief justice. “That’s a big deal,” he said. “We just lost another Mount Laurel case two weeks ago before a Superior Court judge.”

He added that Republicans need to win legislative seats and suggested that the state bring back regional contribution agreements (RCAs) for affordable housing. Under RCAs, a municipality could pay another municipality to build its share of affordable housing.

Spadea said the state can’t wait for the courts or the Legislature.

“The governor in New Jersey has the most executive power of any governor in the country, and I intend to use it,” Spadea said. “On day one, we have five executive orders ready to restore the RCA trading agreements and redefine what a housing unit is, and we’re going to move these housing units into our cities. Our suburban towns, our middle-class communities need relief today.”

Bramnick said Spadea can’t do what he has suggested. “Guess what? You can sign whatever you want, but that’s not constitutional,” Bramnick said.

Municipalities should not be told how many housing units to build, Bramnick said. He proposed dividing the state into three parts and creating affordable housing in three sections of the state.

“This plan of building overdevelopment in towns has been a disaster,” Bramnick said.

Ciattarelli said Democrats have overdeveloped the suburbs and taken the garden out of the Garden State.

“Their overdevelopment flies in the face of their position on climate change,” Ciattarelli said. “We need to stop the overdevelopment of our suburbs. It’s causing stormwater management problems, flooding issues, and all kinds of things.”

Spadea said he would declare a state of emergency, suspend bail reform, and start filling prisons. He claimed criminals are walking free everywhere and draining resources. He said towns should not build affordable housing in areas without transportation, jobs, water, energy, or infrastructure.

“We have those places,” Spadea said. “They’re called cities, and we’re going to use the millions and millions of dollars sitting in builders’ escrow, take that money from the suburbs, and trade those housing units to the cities.”

NJ Transit

Ciattarelli proposed putting all transportation in the state, including the Turnpike, the Garden State Parkway, and NJ Transit, under one agency. He also said lawmakers need to pressure Amtrak to improve the federal rail system so NJ Transit can run better.

Spadea said the state needs to hire people who understand transit rather than awarding jobs to politically connected allies.

“Why are we talking about throwing money at New Jersey Transit instead of actually fixing the problem of logistics?” Spadea said. “Why do you have buses running in the middle of the night with no one on them? Why does New Jersey Transit sit on so many acres of land that could be monetized for ratables to our local communities? Too often, it’s easy for NJ Transit to blame Amtrak for delays.”

Murphy is focused on converting buses to electric vehicles, but Spadea said he should prioritize making sure buses run on time.

Durr said the state shouldn’t consider building new rail lines until existing trains run on schedule.

“For as long as I can remember, transit has been a problem, but nobody seems to want to address the real issue,” he said. “We have the same guys doing the same things over and over, and nobody’s getting in there and fixing the problem.”

Bramnick said the problem is infrastructure.

“We pay millions to Amtrak, and we get no change in infrastructure,” Bramnick said. “I am telling you that there’s nothing you can do to fix New Jersey Transit unless the infrastructure is changed.”

Education

Asked whether the New Jersey Department of Education (NJDOE) should be dismantled, Ciattarelli said the agency only needs a couple dozen employees.

“At the end of the day, what matters most to a child’s education is their teacher and their parents’ roles,” Ciattarelli said. “How many people does it take to establish the standards for what reading and math? … I don’t know why we need thousands upon thousands of people working at the federal and state level to do that to improve our educational system.

Ciattarelli said he also supports school choice.

“Where a school system is failing, people ought to have a choice—vouchers, charter schools, and the like,” Ciattarelli said. “We’ve seen none of that under Phil Murphy because he’s owned by the NJEA.”

Ciattarelli also said he would call for the resignation of all members of the State Board of Education who made curriculum changes that “a whole lot of people find very, very offensive.”

Spadea said Ciattarelli doesn’t understand what school choice means.

“We need education savings accounts in New Jersey. We need a Department of Education that reflects the diverse sources of education involving homeschooling and micro-schooling, and yes, charter schools,” Spadea said, adding that the cost of education needs to be lowered in the state.

“I live in Princeton, and my wife and I love this town. We moved there because the schools were great. And you know what? The schools in Princeton, it costs about $18,000 to educate one kid. In the charter schools, it costs about $12,000 or so on average,” Spadea said. “In Newark, New Jersey, you’re spending more than $1 billion, but 9 out of 10 children cannot do math at grade level. So what do we need to do? We need to take those 4,000 kids and get them out of that failure.”

Spadea blamed immigrants for draining school district resources.

“The reason that we are not effectively funding a lot of special education is because we have 900,000 illegals in our state, and we don’t know how many hundreds of thousands of these kids are in school districts that the school district just has to accommodate,” Spadea said.

Bramnick said the state should leave successful schools alone and only intervene when schools are failing. He said too many state mandates hurt schools and learning, and also expressed concerns that a pending lawsuit regarding inequity in public schools could result in children being bused 10 miles away from their communities.

Durr voiced support for vouchers and said the NJDOE is bloated. He said New Jersey has too many school districts and that the teachers union, the NJEA, is corrupt.

Freedom to Read Act

Durr claimed the Freedom to Read Act gives librarians the freedom to provide pornography to children. Bramnick said he voted for the act and that people who criticize it haven’t read the legislation.

“Number one, the local board of education will set the policy. Two, it has to be appropriate based on ages, and the parents have a right to appeal. Before this, we had the wild, wild West. There were no rules whatsoever,” Bramnick said.

Ciattarelli said the issue should be decided by local school boards.

“There is only one public employee that warrants and deserves immunity, and that is our police, not school librarians, with all due respect,” Ciattarelli said.

Spadea said he would have vetoed the act.

“The idea of home rule does not mean that children and parents in districts where the NJEA has poured millions of dollars pushing their radical agenda, that those kids and those parents and those teachers should be left out to dry,” Spadea said.

Voter initiatives and referendums

Asked for their opinion on allowing residents to put issues on the statewide ballot, Spadea said voters should be deciding who their governor and legislators are.

“The problem with initiatives and referendums is the same thing we see with ballot questions. Who writes it? How is it translated?” Spadea said. “Usually, it is very confusing, and it has almost always been a tool of the insiders, the elites, the professional politicians to get more of our taxpayer dollars. I think it’s time that we have a Legislature that is held accountable and responsible.”

Spadea said the annual state budget has increased from $35 billion under Chris Christie to $60 billion under Phil Murphy.

Ciattarelli said he would fight for referendums on two issues if elected—one for school funding reform and one for affordable housing changes.

Bramnick said Democrats have controlled the Legislature for two decades.

“The voice of the public can only be heard through initiatives and referendums, and the first thing we should put on the ballot is a cap on state spending at 2%,” Bramnick said. “We know that municipalities are capped at 2%, and that has a significant effect on property taxes. It’s now time to allow the voters to vote.”

Pensions and taxes

New Jersey needs to draw the line on pensions and model its pension system after Wisconsin, Spadea said.

Bramnick said the law requires the state to give people their pensions once they have been in the system for a certain amount of time.

“We should seriously consider alternatives to our present pension system, but to stand up here and say, ‘You’re not going to fulfill a commitment to teachers and law enforcement,’ I think, is the wrong policy,” he said.

“Absolutely, we should honor the commitments we made to the men and women who earned those pensions,” Durr said. “But as John said, yes, we have to consider the new hires, and we have to come up with another format.”

The state doesn’t have a revenue problem—it has a spending problem, Durr said.

“We have too many illegals here, and they drain our services,” he said. “We have to stop the waste of money that goes on in this state, and that’s where you’ll end up saving.”

Ciattarelli said New Jersey businesses face the highest overall tax burden in the country. He questioned how Pennsylvania could lower its business tax from 10% to 5% while New Jersey’s increased from 9% to 11%, the highest in the nation.

Spadea called the state gas tax a boondoggle and said the $250 electric vehicle surcharge should be raised to $1,000 because of the effort it takes for firefighters to put out electric vehicle fires.

“Why are the gas-powered cars paying the gas tax, paying everything that the EVs are not paying?” Spadea said.

All the candidates supported reinstating pension cost-of-living adjustments for police officers and firefighters.

COVID-19

Spadea said all corrections officers, nurses, and anyone else who was fired “because they did not submit to the tyranny of the mask and the forced jabs, the lockdown, the masks” would be given retroactive pay if he is elected governor.

“Not only did I stay away from that poison jab, but I fought hard for medical freedom for families to make decisions on their own,” Spadea said.

Ciattarelli said his second executive order would require all 65,000 state workers to return to in-person work. When it comes to vaccines and masking, he said people should decide for themselves what is best.

“We’re still recovering from the learning loss. Look at the difference between what happened in New Jersey and what happened in Florida. The governor’s job is to strike the right balance,” Ciattarelli said. “As for the vaccinations and the masks, I’m a live-and-let-live guy. You want to wear a mask, wear a mask. You want to get vaccinated, get vaccinated.”

Durr blamed the Murphy administration for the deaths of more than 15,000 people in nursing homes.

“Locking down a state was wrong, taking kids out of school was wrong, masking people and telling them they have to take a shot was wrong. Taking their jobs away was wrong,” Durr said. “You have to let people make their own choice, because that’s what this country is about—freedom.”

Bramnick said people should follow science instead of believing what they read on the internet.

“When I am the governor, I am going to bring in infectious disease experts and people with science backgrounds, not people from the internet. I believe in science, and you want a governor who believes in science. You don’t want some partisan governor who’s going to make decisions based on some constituent or somebody on the internet,” Bramnick said.

He criticized Murphy for continuing to extend the state of emergency without input from the public or the Legislature.

“That was a major failure,” Bramnick said.

Diversity, equity and inclusion (DEI)

Ciattarelli called DEI “affirmative action on steroids” and said the country should operate as a meritocracy.

“I believe what the president is doing is right, and you’re seeing it all across corporate America and all other spaces across the country,” Ciattarelli said. “Like everything else that’s happened during the Phil Murphy era, the pendulum swung too far. It became way too liberal and unfair in many other ways.”

Spadea said he would use executive orders to end DEI and “rip out this absolutely racist institution which kills productivity and denies qualified workers a job.”

Durr said everyone knows that the harder you work, the more you get, and the better things become in life.

“Why should that change?” Durr said.

Bramnick agreed that hiring should be based on qualifications and job performance.

Transgender rights

“Sometime around seventh or eighth grade, we all take biology, and we learn that X and Y means you’re a guy. It’s simple. There’s no confusion there,” Durr said. “There will be no biological males competing in female sports, going into female locker rooms, or going into the bathroom with them.

“I don’t care what you do when you’re an adult, but when you’re a minor, that is abuse to a child … to close out parents having a voice where a kid goes to school and decides one day, instead, he’s not Johnny, he wants to be Janie—no, that’s ridiculous. The parents need to know about their family.”

Ciattarelli said his job is to provide for the health and safety of all 9 million New Jersey residents.

“There’s not supposed to be any hate. There’s not supposed to be any bias. There’s not supposed to be any harassment. There’s not supposed to be any prejudice or any discrimination,” Ciattarelli said. “Wherever I find it, I will call it out. So I’m here to protect any and all groups, particularly marginalized groups here in New Jersey, plain and simple.”

Spadea said the “transing of children” needs to end.

“There is a huge difference between sexual orientation, sexual preferences, and mental illness,” Spadea said, adding that he would issue executive orders to ensure that spaces in public restrooms, prisons, hospitals, and schools are assigned by biology.

“Parental rights have to be the top priority of the next governor,” Spadea said. “We have seen the erosion of parental rights at every single level in this state. It is time to put mom and dad back into the picture and make sure that we’re protecting kids, because those kids are going through either confusion, or they’re acting out, or they truly have a disability and a mental situation called gender dysphoria, which is a real thing.”

Bramnick said the transgender and gay communities should be respected.

“The Republican Party should always have a heart,” Bramnick said. “That doesn’t mean that we should allow biological males to play in sports as women, but let’s make sure the Republican Party shows respect.”

The “deep state” and corruption

Candidates were asked about their thoughts on five New Jersey governors sitting shoulder to shoulder at a groundbreaking ceremony with Democratic power broker George Norcross, who is battling a racketeering indictment, and whether this was “evidence of a deep state entrenched in a permanent bureaucracy of special interests.”

None of the candidates criticized the governors for fraternizing with Norcross, though Durr said a cabal has controlled New Jersey and that everyone in power likes the status quo.

“Nobody cared about Menendez being corrupt when he was towing the line for the Democrat Party,” Durr said, adding that if he is governor, the lieutenant governor and state police would be responsible for rooting out corruption.

Ciattarelli said he would combine the State Commission of Investigation with the Office of the State Comptroller and place them under one auditor general, who would be appointed by the governor and serve as a cabinet member.

Bramnick said the governor needs to appoint an attorney general who will root out corruption.

“But this concept of the deep state, what are you talking about?” Bramnick said. “That’s that mythology you hear on cable TV, but it’s not reality … let’s get rid of this deep-state nonsense.”

January 6

Bramnick was booed by the crowd when he criticized Trump for pardoning Jan. 6 rioters who attacked police.

“Let me make this clear: Either we’re the party of law and order, or we’re not,” Bramnick said. “You can clap, you can boo if you want, but I will stand with police officers every time.”